You are not logged in.

Dear visitor, welcome to Last Chaos Forum. If this is your first visit here, please read the Help. It explains in detail how this page works. To use all features of this page, you should consider registering. Please use the registration form, to register here or read more information about the registration process. If you are already registered, please login here.

Caugsmire

Rising Star

  • "Caugsmire" is male
  • "Caugsmire" started this thread

Posts: 109

Date of registration: 14. July 2015

Location: Bristol

Occupation: IT

  • Send private message

1

Saturday, 2. June 2018, 15:13

Upgrade Event Mathematics

Every so often I see posts about the success or, more usually, failure of upgrading during events, so I thought I would put forward my interpretation of how these events work and ask someone - perhaps Vilya - to confirm or correct me...

Assume that the likelihood of a Heavenstone upgrade at a particular level was 20% success, 40% fail and 40% break, ie 20 successes 40 fails and 40 breaks

If the effect of a 200% event is to double the PROBABILITY of success, then this would make the figures 40% success, 30% fail and 30% break

If the effect of the event is to double the NUMBER of successes, then this would give 40 success, 40 fail and 40 break, ie 33.3% for each outcome.

While the difference isn't great in this example, if you had a 500% event it would make the difference between 100% success and 55% success


So the question is - which (if either) is the correct interpretation of the 200% event? I believe from earlier posts that the event effect is the second one, rather than the first, but it would be good to be sure...

Caugsmire
(retired statistician which may explain the above...)

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Caugsmire" (2. June 2018, 15:39)

  • Go to the top of the page
  • Activate Facebook

unavailable

Rising Star

  • "unavailable" is male

Posts: 118

Date of registration: 14. January 2015

  • Send private message

2

Saturday, 2. June 2018, 16:14

Ugh...one of these topics again....

First off, the heaven stone upgrade chances are: 50% success 50% fail (fail includes no change, downgrade by 1, break)
So lets say heavenstone chances are: 50% success, 25% no change 15 downgrade, 10% break


During a 200% upgrade event, the chances for upgrade are: 100% success, 25% no change, 15% downgrade, 10% break.
Only the success rate is increased, the failure rate still remains the same.

  • Go to the top of the page
  • Activate Facebook

Caugsmire

Rising Star

  • "Caugsmire" is male
  • "Caugsmire" started this thread

Posts: 109

Date of registration: 14. July 2015

Location: Bristol

Occupation: IT

  • Send private message

3

Saturday, 2. June 2018, 16:33

Thanks for the reply - however your reply highlights the very point I am making ...

The whole meaning of percentages of probability is that they add up to 100% - if something has 100% chance of success then it has 0% chance of aanything else...

Example - toss a normal coin - chance of heads = 50% and chance of tails = 50%; toss a double-headed coin and chance of heads = 100% chance of tails = 0%

You therefore agree with my second interpretation, that the number of successes doubles, not the percentage - incidentally, the success rate does increase in your example, from 50 out of 100 (50%) to 100 out of 150 (66.7%) just not double...


By the way, my understanding is that the chances of heaven stones upgrading failing and breaking vary, depending on the level of the item you are trying to upgrade - see lastchaosinfo for more details...

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Caugsmire" (2. June 2018, 17:16) with the following reason: correcting typos

  • Go to the top of the page
  • Activate Facebook

unavailable

Rising Star

  • "unavailable" is male

Posts: 118

Date of registration: 14. January 2015

  • Send private message

4

Saturday, 2. June 2018, 16:35

No,
you cannot think of it as "they should add up to 100%" because that's not how this works. They add up in the base / standard functionality. Event is something that alters the base and boosts it, that's why you will never add it up to 100%, because it is altere4d for the purpose of a event.

and no, what you read on lastchaosinfo.com about equipment having different chances of upgrading is incorrect. they do not vary on equipment level at all.

  • Go to the top of the page
  • Activate Facebook

Caugsmire

Rising Star

  • "Caugsmire" is male
  • "Caugsmire" started this thread

Posts: 109

Date of registration: 14. July 2015

Location: Bristol

Occupation: IT

  • Send private message

5

Saturday, 2. June 2018, 16:38

I am agreeing with you that the chance of success doesn't double - and just pointing out that the use of percentages is incorrect.

  • Go to the top of the page
  • Activate Facebook

unavailable

Rising Star

  • "unavailable" is male

Posts: 118

Date of registration: 14. January 2015

  • Send private message

6

Saturday, 2. June 2018, 16:40

It actually is the chan ce of upgrade that increases and not amount of upgrades. you are thinking completely wrong.

  • Go to the top of the page
  • Activate Facebook

Caugsmire

Rising Star

  • "Caugsmire" is male
  • "Caugsmire" started this thread

Posts: 109

Date of registration: 14. July 2015

Location: Bristol

Occupation: IT

  • Send private message

7

Saturday, 2. June 2018, 16:50

Do you agree that in your example,
chance of upgrade (probability) = number of upgrades / number of attempts

Without event = 50 /(50 + 25 + 15 + 10) = 50% so 300 attempts would on average give 150 successes and 150 failures

With event = 100 / (100 + 25 + 15 + 10) = 66.7% so 300 attempts would on average give 200 successes and 100 failures

If so, we agree and can leave it there - our only disagreement is in the use of the word percentage...


Caugsmire xx

PS It was Vilya back in 2016 who implied that success rates decreased at higher levels - "Would you expect same level of success upgrading from +15 as you would from +5"

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Caugsmire" (2. June 2018, 17:14)

  • Go to the top of the page
  • Activate Facebook

Posts: 12

Date of registration: 15. July 2015

  • Send private message

8

Saturday, 2. June 2018, 20:10

heaven stones have a mind of their own , math is useless . I recently made a plus 16 eribus staff , I had a plus 2 staff, I dropped 24 heaven stones in it to make it plus 6 , sadly I was trying to break it and was spamming heaven stones to do it , 9 chaos smelts and 1 extreme stone later and presto , plus 16 ... heaven stones like to mess with you ,it makes them happy . that was a new record for me . most heaven stones used without breaking the item 24 .

  • Go to the top of the page
  • Activate Facebook

Posts: 27

Date of registration: 14. July 2017

  • Send private message

9

Monday, 4. June 2018, 08:02

I think the point he's trying to make is that "%" is supposed to make things easier to understand.
There are so many "Types" % is used in LC, it's hard to tell what is what.

- % Increased Chance
- % Decreased Chance
- % Chance
- % Effective
and so on...

I understand there's a concept behind the % being used in different ways, and it working the way it should, but it's not clear to the players what is what. So when we see 600% in an upgrade event, we see 1 of 2 things (600% chance, which is ultimately 100% success) or (600% increased chance, which is ultimately 100% success with most items).

And that whole "It actually is the chance of upgrade that increases and not amount of upgrades. you are thinking completely wrong."
... logically, if the "chance of success increases", so should "the number of success".

  • Go to the top of the page
  • Activate Facebook

unavailable

Rising Star

  • "unavailable" is male

Posts: 118

Date of registration: 14. January 2015

  • Send private message

10

Monday, 4. June 2018, 09:12

I think the point he's trying to make is that "%" is supposed to make things easier to understand.
There are so many "Types" % is used in LC, it's hard to tell what is what.

- % Increased Chance
- % Decreased Chance
- % Chance
- % Effective
and so on...

I understand there's a concept behind the % being used in different ways, and it working the way it should, but it's not clear to the players what is what. So when we see 600% in an upgrade event, we see 1 of 2 things (600% chance, which is ultimately 100% success) or (600% increased chance, which is ultimately 100% success with most items).

And that whole "It actually is the chance of upgrade that increases and not amount of upgrades. you are thinking completely wrong."
... logically, if the "chance of success increases", so should "the number of success".



To your 600% increase comment:
You are talking about jewels specifically here, ill explain it this way:
Lets take for example a Level 15 coral. Its meld chance is say...25%, a 600% jewel meld is basically: 25% x 6 = 150%.
This however a very "rough" way to see it. % based chances in LC are a number in the code and not an actual %, so by increasing it by 600% you increase that number, even tho you can roughly say its "150%" during the event, the fact is its not a 100% guaranteed meld, hence the failure chances still occur. Not sure if you are following what I mean?
  • Go to the top of the page
  • Activate Facebook

Similar threads