Last Chaos Forum

Can we please get a balance? We have VIP test servers every now and then, why have we not balanced PvP with the help of players who PvP all day since like 2012? or w/e it was last time...

It's as simple as taking suggestions, applying them and getting opinions on them. Regardless of how long it takes the developers to learn the base, I'm sure if they exist, they are able to change cooldowns on skills, pots, and other minor stuff like removing debuffs off of buffs... Considering they were added by them.


If you vote no, please explain why because I would be enlightened to hear why we don't need a balance.

We had a rework of skills and basically the entire game when it was last done, and it is wayyyyy beyond broken than it was. The last balance rework I remember put most of the classes closest to a balance as I can remember.

So yes, players are biased, but it's far better than letting someone that has never played the game attempt to balance something they do not understand because we have seen what that has done.

Get GMs to help balance the classes, get your favorite, non-biased players to help balance the classes...
Suggestions are made by the players for the players, so if we're going to pull the "players will be biased" card... We will make 0 progress because EVERY suggestion EVER made is biased. It's called opinions for a a reason. The game is not balanced, and whether that takes a little bit of biased to help balance the game, then I'm pretty sure everyone in their right mind would not mind it.

On top of that, if they're really against having players opinion affect how the balance happens, do what a reasonable developer would do, take suggestions and then decide whether they're reasonable or not and go based off of that.

And as for the argument to not invest time in something that does not seem reasonable... where is the time being spent exactly? I can probably go back upwards of 5 years to find a post made by a player asking for a rebalance... and yet we have seen 0 progress whatsoever. I have been playing once again for the last 2 years and not a single change has been made to help insure that something is being done about it... so I wouldn't say that it would be a waste of time to invest in player's opinions... I would say it's time that we're not seeing being invested at all.

Alright so why not do it based on the system already in place?

Why not take a player's suggestion and turn it into a poll to get a greater "pool" for higher chance of non-biased opinion.

We all know no progress will be made in the near future, but if this urges the team to do something about it, it'll be far better than what we have been able to achieve. So regardless of this being about the players being the ones to balance the game or the developers themselves, it would be a nice change to have.

The stand you're taking could be applied to every suggest ever made, it could as easily be applied to the developers.
However in a MMO, no one understands the concept of balance better than the players playing it.

So if 5 players say Rogues are OP opposed to 1 saying no it's good... I would listen to the 5 regardless of their biased opinion, because the purpose is to make a change (regardless of how minor or major) and that is not going to happen if we label every balancing suggestion a biased opinion.

More than enough people have suggested a very well written and thought out plan, one of them being Justin. He plays most of the classes in the game and I agree with almost every little detail he listed in his thread.

And as far as I can tell, it is pretty easy to put together a team (Whether it be of developers, or GMs, or players) to determine whether a suggestion is biased or not.

And I do agree that almost every class has had its OP stage once upon a time, but you listing the dates proves how little time and effort is put towards the MOST MAJOR concept of a RPG, the combat. Combat should be the one piece of concept that is touched EVERY update, whether it be testing nerfs or buffs to classes. Having 1 combat change occur once a year or decade (From what it feels like), is not progress but an obstacle stopping the game from growing. I hear complaints about it from players coming back after searching for games to play and they come back to this only to find out nothing has changed since the time they left... or new players asking what they play and EVERY single time being given the answer "if you plan to pvp, play a rogue or you will get no where".

What? I don't know if you're missing the concept of a "suggestion" or you simply believe a balance in the game should be based on what the math equals. And I'll tell you right now it's impossible. You are asking people that don't play the game to consider the play style of an average player (Which is not possible in case you have trouble conceiving that) and decide what best fits that average player based on how the numbers add up (once again not possible because if skills like Dash don't work, and the person fixing them does not take suggestions of the players, then that person will consider it a part of their math, thus hindering their calculations)

You want to believe that a balance can be done from the outside, but that's simply not how balancing works. Some of the biggest games in this genre, I won't name any, ask players for balancing criteria. Heck, some of them have in-game polls... because that's how much player opinion matters. You cannot ask a combat based game to be balanced by the developer unless that developer dedicates as much time as an average player actually playing the game.

Those 5 players that you're referring to have more idea of how pvp works than the developer, that has not played the game, would.
And there are many things to combat this entire "biased" concept, and to name one, it's called "a team effort". One person's opinion does not need to be the change that is committed, you can have a team's opinion, made up of various different players, gms, developers, who play different characters, who have knowledge of different aspects of the game.

At this point you're arguing against a rebalance rather than a fair balance. And that's what you've done time and time again on various balancing threads. So if that's what you're arguing for, state it so I do not have to argue you on the "Biased" statement. Because as stated in my previous posts as well, biased opinions are biased until two opposing opinions are introduced to each other. And that can easily be done.

Do keep in mind, all progress can be made on a different branch from the live.

This way if some of the changes applied and tested do not work out, it would be easy as 1, 2, 3 to revert them.

And again, regardless of what I'm arguing, I am ultimately fighting for a rebalance, regardless of who does it and it be open to interpretation and changes throughout its process. Thus allowing those who will feel the effect of the changes to have a say and measurable opinion in what happens.

I just want to clear a few things up:

1. The game god damn does need a re-balance, I think everyone at this point agrees.
2. Bias is going to occur, but the best way to combat that is by having as many people testing and giving opinions on what does and does not work.

• You cannot get outsiders to do the balancing, I've worked on projects that I have had 0 experience with, and I can promise you, as good as I can understand math, at the end, it never adds up to what you want. Because each character has its own play style, each character has its own kinks and quirks, different buffs benefit different characters differently. No one in their right mind can work on a project they have 0 knowledge of and be able to put all of that information together to make sound decisions.
• The more suggestions being put into the bucket and then voted over, the higher the accuracy of removing bias from a decision.

• Cleric buffs such as 'Encourage' and 'Charm' have elemental defense debuffs. Thus giving Clerics the ability to debuff their opponents without even being in combat with them.
• Specialist skill called 'Sonic Break' has an elemental attack debuff... If the opponent is debuffed by Sonic Break, they are already unable to attack, so having an elemental attack debuff makes no sense.
• Usability of certain skills in certain areas or to do certain things is also major. Nightshadow Skill called 'Cop of Night' should not hinder the ability of a player to capture the Crystal at Dratan Castle Siege.
• Pet buffs should not work in arena. Certain pet buffs also need to be nerfed to allow for an extensive gameplay. At this very moment, it takes approximately 8 hours to get from level 1 to level 165. You do not need to farm SP because the game is heavily based on auto attacks, and with the use of Elephant buff, you can basically 1 hit everything that you'll be leveling on till level 165.

• Reworking of Affinity items is also a must, the ability to use a potion every 3? ticks defeats the purpose of actual combat, instead relies on who can keep healing and conditioning the fastest.

• I understand that reverting changes is the last resort, I was not recommending implementing a bunch of changes to have them reverted when players do not like them. I was recommending changes (ANY, because we haven't had any in years) in general. And if at the very end it does not work out, ability to revert unwanted content should not be hard.