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  • "Protonixs" is male
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Monday, 19. December 2016, 23:03

Managing the Server's Economy While Improving New Player Retainment

These suggestion boards implement an interesting characteristic to the product line that is Last Chaos: A medium between which players voices can be heard whilst allowing the business savvy minds at Gamigo to filter the given suggestions into a profitable business model. Given this, it begs to question, "What kind of suggestions are good suggestions?" Unfortunately, not all suggestions are good or feasible. The ones that are "good" have one common characteristic: they have the potential to make the game more profitable. If a proposed suggestion does not feasibly have an impact on bottom line profitability, it is effectively a wasted suggestion.
I hope to use this platform to convince those to whom it may concern that my following suggestion, along with improving gameplay, has a very real probability of increasing bottom line profitability.

(The short version is this: currency needs to be removed from the game to make it more accessible to new players. The currency needs to be removed willingly, not taken as a percentage. Making the game more accessible to new players in a way that is fair for veteran players opens up Last Chaos to increased bottom line profitability with little to no risk.)

The economy of Last Chaos is suffering. This is an undeniable premise, as the inflation that is obvious over the past decade is rampant. The disparity between how much physical currency the game provides to it's players (gold) and market prices continues to grow. The first relevant question is of course: why is this worth giving special attention to? To answer this question, I pose a secondary question: Who does hyperinflation hurt? I am certain a case can be made that this economic ill has a demonstrable effect on one of the games most valuable market segments: new players. Rightly or wrongly, there is a feeling of helplessness when you have logged into a game for the first time, play for an hour or two, and then realize that while you have X amount of currency, most other players are selling items for amounts that, as a new player, you have no reason to think you can ever feasibly obtain. This helplessness has been well documented. It is critical to realize that this helplessness is causing potentially profitable customers to walk away from the game. Gone, permanently.

So how do we close the divide while being fair to players? Some suggest physically decreasing everyone's gold by a percentage. This is a bad idea. This is effectively stealing from people who have likely worked hard for their possessions. That is almost always bad for business.

To fix this problem players have to willingly forfeit their in game currency. This is done by getting players to spend in-game currency in a way that effectively destroys the currency. This is currently done on a small scale with anything that players purchase from NPC's. In order for the economy to be effectively benefited, thus making new-customer retainment rise, is to start by increasing NPC sales to an amount greater than the amount of currency being created by the game.

For example, in one 24-hour period, if the game has created 10 trillion units of currency (via drops, NPC purchases, etc), to enter a mode economic recovery, which could also be called deflation, the sales of NPC's (players forfeiting currency to an NPC) would need to exceed 10 trillion in that same 24-hour period, effectively decreasing the amount of currency in the game.

There are many suggestions on how this could be implemented:

  • Events in which NPC sell valuable items for prices significantly below market price to spur demand. (With Heaven Stone's currently costing about 4 million units of currency, a special event in which NPC's sold Heaven Stones for 2 million units of currency would fit the suggested method here)
  • Similarly, events in which players could spend appropriate amounts of in-game currency to shop the item mall, or certain sections of it. (This could also be a special event NPC)
  • Allowing players to pay in game currency for things such as experience, pet experience, skill experience. (1 gold = 1 xp)
While each of these suggestions may have flaws in their own right, my goal is not to advocate for any one particular solution. My goal is to advocate for what these proposed solutions, and the hundreds more not proposed have in common: they remove currency from the game. More importantly, the currency is removed from the game willingly. (It seems that offering certain item mall items to be purchased with in game gold during special events might spur demand for IC purchases, but this is for Gamigo to decide)

If you remove currency from the game, inflation goes down. This is an economic fact.

During World War II, Germany printed money to pay its soldiers. They famously carried around their money in wheelbarrows. The money, because it was simply printed and not held to any relevant standard, had little value.

Last Chaos is currently printing money with no relevant standard, and prices ranging in the billions tell the story of German soldiers carrying around their money in wheel barrows.


This issue needs to be addressed. Not only for current players, but for all the potential customers lost within the first three hours of game play.

Thanks for your attention,
Protonixs
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Monday, 19. December 2016, 23:31

worst idea ever...


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This post by "AnotherUser" (Tuesday, 20. December 2016, 00:31) has been deleted by user "Scimitar" (Wednesday, 22. March 2017, 23:23)

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Tuesday, 20. December 2016, 00:54

While I guess introducing Item Mall items for shorter periods of time in regular NPC shops would reduce the prices slightly overall on the market for those specific items, it would also have the adverse effect of lowering the worth and use of the Item Mall, which is NOT something that is in Gamigo's best interest at all. If you could get IC Items from NPCs during specific Events or during certain periods of time, then people would just stop buying stuff from the item mall all together and simply wait for these specific times to roll around, similar to how most people prefer to only fuse jewels during Jewel Fuse events, and only upgrade their gear during Upgrade Events, since the chance are so low for improvement in both these categories without the added benefit of the Events.

Even if we assume that not all IM items would be available through this way, the "gap" between older players and newer players would more likely increase rather than decrease. By lowering prices on items like Heaven Stones, Rune of Protection, Jewels and whatnot, you by extension increase the value of the pure gold that some of the veteran's are sitting on. Not to mention that its' still the players themselves that are controlling the market and these very same players have been attempting to force the prices to increase rather than decrease, even through this inflation, because they are either greedy as fudge, or they only see the numbers on their screen, not the items actual value.

On top of that, a lot of the older players have most items either stocked or easily accessable. While these people are certainly a minority, many people who do have more than a few bil to their names are sitting on that gold because they don't actually need to spend it right now. There is nothing on the market that they are in dire need of, hence those billions will stay where they are (this ties into the topic of new content, which has also been discussed frequently on this forum).

Also, let's take your second example:

"Similarly, events in which players could spend appropriate amounts of in-game currency to shop the item mall, or certain sections of it. (This could also be a special event NPC)."


While this might serve to decrease the value of certain items, it wouldn't help the economy as a whole. The supply for this or these particular item(s) would increase while the demand would stay the same, but that is limited to that specific item. Anything which isn't related to that one or those few specific items would remain at the same price and while this could indeed possibly reduce the amount of gold actually in the game, the players wouldn't lower the prices in their shops just like that and we're straight back to where we started, where it's the players who are the problem.


Your last example is (and I'm really sorry for saying this), terrible. If you could just buy Exp, Skill Points or Pet Exp or anything even remotely along those lines, it would make a majority of the items in the game absolutely useless and would defeat the purpose and need of actually playing the game.


I apologize for kind of trampling all over your suggestions and ideas, but I just don't think it will work. While Gamigo and Aeria (the previous owner) certainly are part of the inflation itself, the players who play the game are the ones who are controlling the economy. They set the prices in shops, and they pay the prices in shops. There are elements on both sides of the spectrum that have been pushing this economy to its' limits.

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Tuesday, 20. December 2016, 00:58

worst idea ever...
Care to elaborate on why this is the worst idea ever? If you are going to call an idea "bad", then at least be decent enough to explain why you think so, and if you don't want to, or aren't able to argue against it, then why would you even bother to post in the thread?
worst idea ever...
Agreed. It seems like it's people like this OP who are giving absolutely horrible advice and suggestions to the powers that be of this game.
At least they take the time out of their day to think and write long suggestions on what could be done differently, for better or worse, to resolve the situation, instead of whining and complaining.
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Tuesday, 20. December 2016, 02:10

worst idea ever...
Care to elaborate on why this is the worst idea ever? If you are going to call an idea "bad", then at least be decent enough to explain why you think so, and if you don't want to, or aren't able to argue against it, then why would you even bother to post in the thread?

I gave my personal opinion, and since this is a forum and I didn't break any rule, I am allowed to comment anything I want.
About my statement - why I do think this or that - u explained it well enough ;)

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Tuesday, 20. December 2016, 04:36

Allow me to respectfully say two things:

The only rebuttals offered in these comments have been such that offer no factual rebuttal ("I simply don't like your idea") and a well thought out rebuttal (which I respect for its thoughtfulness) in which cuts down solutions that were offered as hypothedicals.

Until one can factually claim and support that finding some way to reduce the overall currency available in the game would be an economic negative, I will remain unconvinced. This is not said out of disrespect or ill-will. Just remember that my 'idea' is not any of the hypothedical solutions provided. My 'idea' is that the overall amount of currency in the game needs a sink -- an outflow if you will.

If there is an argument to be made against my idea, it is not one to be made against my hypothetical suggestions, but one to be made about why we don't need more currency outflow in the game.

Thank you all for your comments,
And thanks as always,
Protonixs


While each of these suggestions may have flaws in their own right, my goal is not to advocate for any one particular solution. My goal is to advocate for what these proposed solutions, and the hundreds more not proposed have in common: they remove currency from the game.


While Gamigo and Aeria (the previous owner) certainly are part of the inflation itself, the players who play the game are the ones who are controlling the economy. They set the prices in shops, and they pay the prices in shops. There are elements on both sides of the spectrum that have been pushing this economy to its' limits.
Third reply in 10 minutes -- so sorry for that.

However, I beg of you to think critically of inflation. Inflation isn't caused by shop owners setting prices. Inflation allows owners to set prices that don't reflect the 'common man's' capital.

In the business world, this is often referred to as "Wall Street not representing Main Street".

(I really appreciate your thoughtful reply -- much respect)
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Tuesday, 20. December 2016, 08:27

Random thoughts in no particular order...
We are currently suffering from a form of stagflation. Substitute low unemployment with gold income sources.

People invested real $ in items they expect to bring a certain amount of game gold or produce a certain outcome (higher level, +ed gear etc.). A player has the right to expect that a certain amount of IC they spend will bring $XX of gold

The fact is every living healthy economy has inflation in some measure. Inflation is a normal part of a healthy economy. NOBODY wants to make the same amount of income they did before. Everyone wants to improve their status.

What messed up the economy was not legit gold. It was gold obtained by ill-gotten means by a few people. We all know when that happened and probably know some of the people involved and some may have even benefited from it…water under the bridge…

Gold possessors: What can you do to them to get their gold? Nothing unless they want to give it. My contention is if their gold is not active in the game then how does that hurt the economy?

I constantly feel like I am getting punished (reducing my income potential) for the sins of someone else. How is that fair? How is that right? How can that be justified?

Massive inflation was sure to happen after Gamingo took over. IC prices skyrocketed causing a correlating increase in in game prices. People were not going to spend more money and receive less in return for the $... sorry to burst your bubble but, that will just never happen. If I start receiving less benefit for the $ I spend then the $ I spend will start to go down. In other words, the game becomes a bad investment to me.

There is no way to quickly fix this. What needs to happen is the economy needs to find an equilibrium. Just the right amount of gold and the right amount of IC prices. Those two items are inseparable. You may get prices in game to go down by removing gold but, in the long run it will lower the amount of IC spent on the game as it is no longer producing the in-game benefit it use to...great for the f2p players bad for the p2p players and we all know which group keeps this game afloat...I am starting to repeat myself so I am going to stop now.

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Tuesday, 20. December 2016, 22:06

What needs to happen is the economy needs to find an equilibrium. Just the right amount of gold and the right amount of IC prices. Those two items are inseparable. You may get prices in game to go down by removing gold but, in the long run it will lower the amount of IC spent on the game as it is no longer producing the in-game benefit it use to.
You seem to suggest that the quantity of gold is equivalent to the quality of gold. For instance, if the gold in-game was decreased by a factor of 10, you would see an average price decrease of around 10%. (allowing for different price elasticities between differing products)

This factorization decrease does not have the effect of lowering the quality of gold, which implies that lowering the amount of gold in circulation would not lower the "in-game benefit" of said gold.

You, knowingly or not, are agreeing with me when you say the economy needs to find an equilibrium. My entire post is meant to draw attention to the lack of equilibrium. In any system, when inflow is greater than outflow, there is expansion within the system. (Think about your traditional queueing system theory) In this circumstance, the expansion results in prices that don't reflect te income offered by the game (through drops, npc sales, etc) because the inflow of created capital is greater than the destruction of capital.

As I said before, this is equivalent to printing currency with no rational backing (population growth, etc). Any elementary economics class lets us know that this is a very bad idea.

I just fail to see why it is being allowed to take place in this virtual environment.
It's simply not sustainable.
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Wednesday, 21. December 2016, 03:41

You seem to suggest that the quantity of gold is equivalent to the quality of gold. For instance, if the gold in-game was decreased by a factor of 10, you would see an average price decrease of around 10%. (allowing for different price elasticities between differing products)

This factorization decrease does not have the effect of lowering the quality of gold, which implies that lowering the amount of gold in circulation would not lower the "in-game benefit" of said gold.

You, knowingly or not, are agreeing with me when you say the economy needs to find an equilibrium. My entire post is meant to draw attention to the lack of equilibrium. In any system, when inflow is greater than outflow, there is expansion within the system. (Think about your traditional queueing system theory) In this circumstance, the expansion results in prices that don't reflect te income offered by the game (through drops, npc sales, etc) because the inflow of created capital is greater than the destruction of capital.

As I said before, this is equivalent to printing currency with no rational backing (population growth, etc). Any elementary economics class lets us know that this is a very bad idea.

I just fail to see why it is being allowed to take place in this virtual environment.
It's simply not sustainable.

I don't necessarily agree on what should be done. I don't even agree with your hypothesis that there is too much gold in play in the game. About the only thing I do agree with is that there are a few select people that have a LOT of gold. To me this is what is causing the error in thinking that there is too much gold in the game. Really all the reduction in gold is going to do is take gold away from the average player while those that have lots of Gold will continue to have lots of gold which will make it appear there is too much gold in game.
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Wednesday, 21. December 2016, 07:22

I don't even agree with your hypothesis that there is too much gold in play in the game. About the only thing I do agree with is that there are a few select people that have a LOT of gold. To me this is what is causing the error in thinking that there is too much gold in the game. Really all the reduction in gold is going to do is take gold away from the average player while those that have lots of Gold will continue to have lots of gold which will make it appear there is too much gold in game.
I'm adamant about replying to you because it helps external readers better assess the economic ideas I'm trying to present. I fully respect and appreciate the dialogue you are allowing by replying in a helpful, well thought out manner.

There are two points I'd like to hit:

Firstly, I don't think there is an issue with the disparity between (the qualitative value of) gold in individual players. I don't think the possession of "a lot of gold" (or better--a lot of value, the unit number is arbitrary) by a small amount of people is an issue, and it worries me that I have failed at conveying my point if that is something that can be interpreted from what I have said so far. My issue is with the disparity between common player incomes (gold drops, npc sales) and common item prices that has been caused by preventable inflation and an unsustainable system. There are, and will always be, players who possess more quality currency than others, by the very nature of the game. But preventable quantity currency fails to help established players while diminishing the experience of unestablished players. In economic terms, this is represented by the artificial increase in the price of basic commodities. (a basic commodity being an indistinguishable product with many buyers and sellers)


Secondly, and more importantly, it is not an opinionated issue disagreement but a factual disagreement in regards to saying there "isn't too much gold in the game". While I suppose you could argue there isn't yet too much gold in the game (inflation isn't high enough yet), in order to make the argument that there isn't, and never foreseeably will be, you'd have to argue one of the following points:
  • The in-game economy isn't creating baseless currency (therefore devaluing it in an unsustainable fashion)
  • It is permissible that the in-game economy is creating baseless currency.
So far it seems as if #2 has been the method you have used, which is extremely well known to be false. #2 is factually false in the same manner that (2+2)=5 is factually false. Because #2 is so obviously incorrect I fear I might have misunderstood your argument. Shall I assume you are under the impression that baseless currency isn't being created?

Thanks as always.
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Wednesday, 21. December 2016, 10:40

I understand from ur first part you want that new players can farm gold decently to be able to afford a +15 wep at low lvl without farming their butt off for weeks to get it, I understand you understand in a way there is a big difference between the old players and new players, but the difference is there for one big reason, this server is a fusion of 6 old servers and its 10 years old, in 10 years lot of stuff has hoarded, it is understandable +25+ weps that are tradeable are not within the reach of a new player, which is logical that it is not in their reach at start.
You are saying this like you join the game and you are forever alone and forever alone untill the rest of the game(that is why you join a friendly and a helpful guild, key of this community is to survive, surviving means giving birth to babies xD i know this sounds funny, but under giving birth I mean helping new players with advice, maybe jeweling their gear with cc3-5 and c3-5 which helps big time at low lvl). I agree, in the past you really needed +15 gear aand it was hard because we had low hp. But now + of gear does not matter, you can reach numbers of 200k+ of hp, only wep with an elemental jewel really matters at the beginning. HS you can obtain trough quiz every sunday, we have events over the week held by the GMs, ofc you need to really learn the game, get to know it to be able to win something. Isn't that the point of playing? To get to know the game within a friendly guild that helps with advice and maybe some good soul in that guild that will jewel your 50-2 or 75 erebus set...

That is my main point when I read your post. You act like there are no helpful people, there are ;) you just have to find them.
Now, I disagree about your gold point, there is a big gold sink for high lvls, it is called affinity shops. This gold reduction is making high lvls spend their stashes of gold since you could easily farm gold in 175-185 raid and maintain your current gold, sort of sustainable development for higher lvls. You see, the higher lvl you are, faster you come to the point of sustainable development, this has been crippled now, high lvls will have to spend their stocked gold.

Conclusion: there are events every day if you wish to participate in the game to get some goodies that you can sell to other players later, players will stay if they really want to get to know how to play the game, there are other helpful players. Also, picking up drops and selling them helps too, moonstone boxes, tool aids, and all those items that drop during special events like mooncake ingredients, stripes, etc...
Key to a new player is not to hoard 10 trillion over night like u people want, this is not sort of a game u finish in 1 day or 10 days or 1 month. We're here for 10 years, it takes time to get decent items, people lack patience, they want everything best right away, there is a way for that too, pay money to save time. Nobody is making u pay, u dont need to pay, nobody is forcing u, there is a saying: good things take time. ;)

Check what not innocent and cuddly one wrote:
Rossy
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Wednesday, 21. December 2016, 13:44

I understand from ur first part you want that new players can farm gold decently to be able to afford a +15 wep at low lvl without farming their butt off for weeks to get it, I understand you understand in a way there is a big difference between the old players and new players, but the difference is there for one big reason, this server is a fusion of 6 old servers and its 10 years old, in 10 years lot of stuff has hoarded, it is understandable +25+ weps that are tradeable are not within the reach of a new player, which is logical that it is not in their reach at start.
You are saying this like you join the game and you are forever alone and forever alone untill the rest of the game(that is why you join a friendly and a helpful guild, key of this community is to survive, surviving means giving birth to babies xD i know this sounds funny, but under giving birth I mean helping new players with advice, maybe jeweling their gear with cc3-5 and c3-5 which helps big time at low lvl). I agree, in the past you really needed +15 gear aand it was hard because we had low hp. But now + of gear does not matter, you can reach numbers of 200k+ of hp, only wep with an elemental jewel really matters at the beginning. HS you can obtain trough quiz every sunday, we have events over the week held by the GMs, ofc you need to really learn the game, get to know it to be able to win something. Isn't that the point of playing? To get to know the game within a friendly guild that helps with advice and maybe some good soul in that guild that will jewel your 50-2 or 75 erebus set...

That is my main point when I read your post. You act like there are no helpful people, there are ;) you just have to find them.
Now, I disagree about your gold point, there is a big gold sink for high lvls, it is called affinity shops. This gold reduction is making high lvls spend their stashes of gold since you could easily farm gold in 175-185 raid and maintain your current gold, sort of sustainable development for higher lvls. You see, the higher lvl you are, faster you come to the point of sustainable development, this has been crippled now, high lvls will have to spend their stocked gold.

Conclusion: there are events every day if you wish to participate in the game to get some goodies that you can sell to other players later, players will stay if they really want to get to know how to play the game, there are other helpful players. Also, picking up drops and selling them helps too, moonstone boxes, tool aids, and all those items that drop during special events like mooncake ingredients, stripes, etc...
Key to a new player is not to hoard 10 trillion over night like u people want, this is not sort of a game u finish in 1 day or 10 days or 1 month. We're here for 10 years, it takes time to get decent items, people lack patience, they want everything best right away, there is a way for that too, pay money to save time. Nobody is making u pay, u dont need to pay, nobody is forcing u, there is a saying: good things take time. ;)
I think the problem is that there is no efficient way of generating gold anymore. In the pass we had plvling, we had tof farming tokens + 69 weps and some other stuff like drop hunting. With the current state of the game there are no ways of making money to buy the items you wish.

You say: "picking them drops and selling them" - Excuse me but that is completely stupid sentence... If people can't generate gold, they don't have money to buy ur items. it's as simple as that and thats why the prices of items crashed already. I see same shops everyday with same prices, they're not selling anything. Not sure what you're playing but it isn't same game as myself.
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Wednesday, 21. December 2016, 14:13

I think the problem is that there is no efficient way of generating gold anymore. In the pass we had plvling, we had tof farming tokens + 69 weps and some other stuff like drop hunting. With the current state of the game there are no ways of making money to buy the items you wish.

You say: "picking them drops and selling them" - Excuse me but that is completely stupid sentence... If people can't generate gold, they don't have money to buy ur items. it's as simple as that and thats why the prices of items crashed already. I see same shops everyday with same prices, they're not selling anything. Not sure what you're playing but it isn't same game as myself.


Only lazy ppl cant make gold. If u expect to play 2 hrs and u get 1b gold - this never was, is and will not happen.
It takes time, patience and work to make money in game. Ppl just want the easy game - go there kill this & that until this lvl, then go there and do that... What happened with "explore the game on ur own " ? Everybody rather to take the shortcuts - do all ur sp at sasquatches, then go lvl in tof, tomb,vlad, trivia... U cant expect somebody to give u the formula how to get rich - its something u got to figure out urself and its something u cant do without knowing the game well. If they lowered the gold from npc stuffs then find another way to make gold - there were a times tof wasn't popular at all and ppl still could make gold ...
About prices in shops - prices going down not because ppl don't have enough money - some ppl might be poor but others could afford them. Prices r bounded to the IC. Few months ago it was 2m per ic, now its like 1,2m ... After all most of the stuffs come from Item mall. How u can say with sure if ppl sell or don't sell anything?There is trading agent as well - and it works pretty fine.

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Wednesday, 21. December 2016, 14:36



I think the problem is that there is no efficient way of generating gold anymore. In the pass we had plvling, we had tof farming tokens + 69 weps and some other stuff like drop hunting. With the current state of the game there are no ways of making money to buy the items you wish.

You say: "picking them drops and selling them" - Excuse me but that is completely stupid sentence... If people can't generate gold, they don't have money to buy ur items. it's as simple as that and thats why the prices of items crashed already. I see same shops everyday with same prices, they're not selling anything. Not sure what you're playing but it isn't same game as myself.
"no efficient way of generating gold anymore"

This way is slowed down (and people(high lvls) need to start use their gold stacked for darker times...), if you use common sense and logic, if you possess that. If they slowed it down, it means more gold is getting into the game than the gold that is getting out of the game. Idk any other reason why some1 would do this unless the balance is not there.
We, players, don't know this info, and people who control the game do.
There are ways of making gold, do MC, go to quizes, do the daily GM events, some people ask for plvl, just don't pay as much as u expect, we have mooncake events every now and then, insect event, upgrade event, jewel fusion/meld/remove event.

When I said: ''pick the drops", I mean on new players, people buy items to fill in the Iris Item Pictorial Book, people buy tool aids to craft materials, people buy moonstone boxes to open moonstones to use them at the moon statue to get magic minerals that are used for keron affinity, keron affinity gives sleep/stone/silence/poison scrolls... (see :D everything is linked)

Thing is o.o I'm gonna be rough now, you lack information since you got back to the game and conditions are different gamigo is not a rich drunk taking money out of his pocket and throwing it in the street (with that i mean how aeria gave to many items even for some little AP purchases), you are either affraid to ask without sounding stupid since you are high lvl, or lazy to ask or not trying hard enough to find out all the changes.

People at your lvl grind seekers with pbi/bi/exp scroll(choice is yours), easy with 2 exp pets above lvl 50, I grinded seekers on my archmage from 166-169 + u got 23-51b exp one timer quests in Tarian, there is LC wiki with the guide how many quests there is and everything. Also people your lvl, boss hunt (levell in same time with repeatable quest 1.8b + pick up quest reward) and sell the drops for gold. So there I basically told u what u need to do to survive out there. o.o

You mentioned you are 165+, elemental bosses is a lvl '150-max' repeatable quest which gives quest reward, I pick Medical chest always, you get medium medicine, cures, owl pills, etc...
Check what not innocent and cuddly one wrote:
Rossy
The hate was real
I speak sarcasm as a 2nd language.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcENL_Vdoqw <---The best Walking Dead episode ever! :D
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Wednesday, 21. December 2016, 16:53

I feel it is important to note that since my last post, the main point in which I had formulated my central idea around has been altered to the point that is almost indistinguishable from what it was originally.

Let me say clearly:

Proposing that measures should be taken to deflate the in game economy is NOT the same as saying low level players need to be able to get gold easily or quickly.


The past several replies have acted as if I'm advocating for the little guy -- saying that new players should be able to get gold in an easier fashion.
This is to miss my point entirely and fails to yield productive talking points for anybody.

My point is that the currency is devalued by nature of it being created at a faster rate than it is being destroyed. If you disagree about this fundamental principle then I'm so sorry, but you are simply factually wrong and there is little convincing I can do. (If someone doesn't accept 2+2=4, it's relatively hard to convince them)

However, when you accept the fact that gold is being created at a faster rate than it is being disposed of, we can have a conversation about inflation and depreciation which are the main points of this post. The only reason I have mentioned new players at all is because they are hit very hard by inflation and it makes the game less playable for them.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Protonixs" (21. December 2016, 17:03)

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Thursday, 22. December 2016, 07:07

The problem that I have with that "deflate" the economy is that those that spend real money on IC take the hit. We have a fixed economy that we deal with $=x IC = in game gold. When you deflate the in game value of IC items you are messing with my pocket book and that gets me a little testy... You have done a lot of rambling around this topic which is fine a guess but, for me this is the bottom line your wanting me to spend more $ to get the same amount of in game gold I use to get.

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Thursday, 22. December 2016, 11:18

Do not mistake a factual pattern for your argument being factual. Yes, what you are saying about the way the economy works and the way the currency loses in value is factual, however that does not mean that your argument is factual by default. Unless you have unrestricted access to Gamigo's logs on the matter, which I highly doubt you have, you cannot claim to know for a fact that the game generates more gold than it eats up. Regardless if you apply a statistical factual pattern, this thread is still built on speculation until someone on Gamigo, who have access to the game logs, confirm that the game do in fact generate more gold than it eats up.


Basically, yes 2 + 2 will always = 4, but that is ONLY viable as long as we know for certain that both of the variables in the equation are 2s.
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Thursday, 22. December 2016, 17:43

Do not mistake a factual pattern for your argument being factual. Yes, what you are saying about the way the economy works and the way the currency loses in value is factual, however that does not mean that your argument is factual by default. Unless you have unrestricted access to Gamigo's logs on the matter, which I highly doubt you have, you cannot claim to know for a fact that the game generates more gold than it eats up. Regardless if you apply a statistical factual pattern, this thread is still built on speculation until someone on Gamigo, who have access to the game logs, confirm that the game do in fact generate more gold than it eats up. Basically, yes 2 + 2 will always = 4, but that is ONLY viable as long as we know for certain that both of the variables in the equation are 2s.
I just love this reply.
I've been so negative lately. But this is good.
It certainly puts my argument into a 'probability' spectrum rather than a black and white certainty spectrum.

I would say, however, that in the decade I've spent in the game, on average the amount of currency has factually risen. (granted, this doesn't necessarily imply that it is currently rising) This rise has to do with issues that we are all familiar with that deal with cheating as well as a mishandled economy.


The biggest weakness to my argument is the fact that I can't know for certainty if this is going on right now, I just see the circumstantial evidence.

Calling me out on that is brilliant.

Thank you specifically for that.
The problem that I have with that "deflate" the economy is that those that spend real money on IC take the hit. We have a fixed economy that we deal with $=x IC = in game gold. When you deflate the in game value of IC items you are messing with my pocket book and that gets me a little testy... You have done a lot of rambling around this topic which is fine a guess but, for me this is the bottom line your wanting me to spend more $ to get the same amount of in game gold I use to get.
I'm sorry, it appears you're conflating quantitative value with relative value. As long as measures are applied evenly among P2P and F2P players the relative value differential will stay relatively constant.

Also, rambling is required when individuals twist and contort economic fact into a fairytale mystery based on their misunderstanding, my lack of clarity, or both.

Thanks as always.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Protonixs" (22. December 2016, 18:07)

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Friday, 23. December 2016, 01:52

Do not mistake a factual pattern for your argument being factual. Yes, what you are saying about the way the economy works and the way the currency loses in value is factual, however that does not mean that your argument is factual by default. Unless you have unrestricted access to Gamigo's logs on the matter, which I highly doubt you have, you cannot claim to know for a fact that the game generates more gold than it eats up. Regardless if you apply a statistical factual pattern, this thread is still built on speculation until someone on Gamigo, who have access to the game logs, confirm that the game do in fact generate more gold than it eats up. Basically, yes 2 + 2 will always = 4, but that is ONLY viable as long as we know for certain that both of the variables in the equation are 2s.
I just love this reply.
I've been so negative lately. But this is good.
It certainly puts my argument into a 'probability' spectrum rather than a black and white certainty spectrum.

I would say, however, that in the decade I've spent in the game, on average the amount of currency has factually risen. (granted, this doesn't necessarily imply that it is currently rising) This rise has to do with issues that we are all familiar with that deal with cheating as well as a mishandled economy.


The biggest weakness to my argument is the fact that I can't know for certainty if this is going on right now, I just see the circumstantial evidence.

Calling me out on that is brilliant.

Thank you specifically for that.
The problem that I have with that "deflate" the economy is that those that spend real money on IC take the hit. We have a fixed economy that we deal with $=x IC = in game gold. When you deflate the in game value of IC items you are messing with my pocket book and that gets me a little testy... You have done a lot of rambling around this topic which is fine a guess but, for me this is the bottom line your wanting me to spend more $ to get the same amount of in game gold I use to get.
I'm sorry, it appears you're conflating quantitative value with relative value. As long as measures are applied evenly among P2P and F2P players the relative value differential will stay relatively constant.

Also, rambling is required when individuals twist and contort economic fact into a fairytale mystery based on their misunderstanding, my lack of clarity, or both.

Thanks as always.

My comments are based on my own in game experience.I am being told there is too much gold in the game while at the same time I am struggling to get said gold...I have been playing for many years but, have never seem to stockpile the amount of gold that would seem excessive to where I could buy anything I wanted. So to me there is a disconnect between the there is too much gold statement and the reality that I face playing the game. I struggle to get enough in game gold to get the items I want to play the game at a competitive level which has basically required me to spend more IC now to get the gold I need for items. You can bring on the I don't know how to play the game statements if you like but, this is what I see. Gamingo may be destroy the value of items to where they might be cheaper than they were but, I will also have less gold to buy said items so what is all this pain supposed to accomplish? In the short term my ability to buy the things I need is crushed until prices stabilize which requires me to spend more IC which is giving me less and less in game income until prices bottom out. Why do this when all they needed to do was make minor adjustments to slow the net growth. To me the cuts appear draconian in nature like they are trying to turn back the clock. To be honest I don't think any of this will change anything. The people that had mounds of gold will stop spending and will still have lots of gold while those that were barely getting by will suffer greatly short term and be no better off long term. Communications has never been my strength so its not your lack of clarity. FYI I don't twist and contort what I experience. Maybe you don't have the same experience and that is fine. My comments about your bloviating were just my way of saying this is not a thesis paper you are attempting to write. You don't have to impress anyone with your knowledge or writing ability or your superior reasoning ability.
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