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currykaran2

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1

Monday, 8. July 2019, 18:46

Can we get a balance?

65%

Yes (24)

35%

No (13)

Can we please get a balance? We have VIP test servers every now and then, why have we not balanced PvP with the help of players who PvP all day since like 2012? or w/e it was last time...

It's as simple as taking suggestions, applying them and getting opinions on them. Regardless of how long it takes the developers to learn the base, I'm sure if they exist, they are able to change cooldowns on skills, pots, and other minor stuff like removing debuffs off of buffs... Considering they were added by them.


If you vote no, please explain why because I would be enlightened to hear why we don't need a balance.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "currykaran2" (8. July 2019, 19:07)

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Jefalo

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Monday, 8. July 2019, 19:08

you are completely right, the developers can change some values easily without real development cost.

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unavailable

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Monday, 8. July 2019, 19:42

I voted No because this is a bit tricky, I mean sure devs will do the work and that's ok, and yes players can make suggestions BUT, I would not take anything players say seriously as 95% of what they say is biased based on what they want / like/ class they play.

And I would definitely not invest / waste time for some tweaks here and there and then test and rinse repeat, they should just simply take their time, overhault it completely so when players get to test it they can test the entire picture and not some tweaks here and there which may go to waste once other things get changed

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Monday, 8. July 2019, 19:46

I voted no for basically the same reasons as Unavailable. Players will be biased to their class or what they feel is best based on their opinion only and not what's best for the game.

Better to let them rework the classes, PvP and skills completely.

"Love me or hate me, both are in my favor. To love me, I'm in your heart. To hate me, I'm in your mind." ~Unknown
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currykaran2

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Monday, 8. July 2019, 20:05

We had a rework of skills and basically the entire game when it was last done, and it is wayyyyy beyond broken than it was. The last balance rework I remember put most of the classes closest to a balance as I can remember.

So yes, players are biased, but it's far better than letting someone that has never played the game attempt to balance something they do not understand because we have seen what that has done.

Get GMs to help balance the classes, get your favorite, non-biased players to help balance the classes...
Suggestions are made by the players for the players, so if we're going to pull the "players will be biased" card... We will make 0 progress because EVERY suggestion EVER made is biased. It's called opinions for a a reason. The game is not balanced, and whether that takes a little bit of biased to help balance the game, then I'm pretty sure everyone in their right mind would not mind it.

On top of that, if they're really against having players opinion affect how the balance happens, do what a reasonable developer would do, take suggestions and then decide whether they're reasonable or not and go based off of that.

And as for the argument to not invest time in something that does not seem reasonable... where is the time being spent exactly? I can probably go back upwards of 5 years to find a post made by a player asking for a rebalance... and yet we have seen 0 progress whatsoever. I have been playing once again for the last 2 years and not a single change has been made to help insure that something is being done about it... so I wouldn't say that it would be a waste of time to invest in player's opinions... I would say it's time that we're not seeing being invested at all.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "currykaran2" (8. July 2019, 20:23)

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dinosue2

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Monday, 8. July 2019, 20:43

I feel it would be better to have someone who does not play the game rework it simply because there will be zero bias towards any of the classes or skills. Otherwise we will wind up with the exact issues as we face now.

Rogues were OP when they used 3x SoS as they became virtually invincible with Dex (2006-2008 ). Specs were almost indestructible due to their Dex (2008-2010). At one time, you couldn't kill a Titan due to their HP pool (2007-2009). Even archers were OP at one time, hard to believe now but it's true. Years are approximate to what I recall off the top of my head, probably not exact, but near to.

Not all changes are due to player suggestions, and not all player suggestions are correct for the game long term. Short term possibly, long term unlikely. The players will always suggest what is best for them or their class and not what's best for the game, it's human nature to want to be best.

Asking a small pool or players you trust or the Game Masters who are also only players is not a solution we need. It will put us further behind in balance due to bias.

"Love me or hate me, both are in my favor. To love me, I'm in your heart. To hate me, I'm in your mind." ~Unknown
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currykaran2

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Monday, 8. July 2019, 20:52

Alright so why not do it based on the system already in place?

Why not take a player's suggestion and turn it into a poll to get a greater "pool" for higher chance of non-biased opinion.

We all know no progress will be made in the near future, but if this urges the team to do something about it, it'll be far better than what we have been able to achieve. So regardless of this being about the players being the ones to balance the game or the developers themselves, it would be a nice change to have.

The stand you're taking could be applied to every suggest ever made, it could as easily be applied to the developers.
However in a MMO, no one understands the concept of balance better than the players playing it.

So if 5 players say Rogues are OP opposed to 1 saying no it's good... I would listen to the 5 regardless of their biased opinion, because the purpose is to make a change (regardless of how minor or major) and that is not going to happen if we label every balancing suggestion a biased opinion.

More than enough people have suggested a very well written and thought out plan, one of them being Justin. He plays most of the classes in the game and I agree with almost every little detail he listed in his thread.

And as far as I can tell, it is pretty easy to put together a team (Whether it be of developers, or GMs, or players) to determine whether a suggestion is biased or not.

And I do agree that almost every class has had its OP stage once upon a time, but you listing the dates proves how little time and effort is put towards the MOST MAJOR concept of a RPG, the combat. Combat should be the one piece of concept that is touched EVERY update, whether it be testing nerfs or buffs to classes. Having 1 combat change occur once a year or decade (From what it feels like), is not progress but an obstacle stopping the game from growing. I hear complaints about it from players coming back after searching for games to play and they come back to this only to find out nothing has changed since the time they left... or new players asking what they play and EVERY single time being given the answer "if you plan to pvp, play a rogue or you will get no where".

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "currykaran2" (8. July 2019, 20:58)

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unavailable

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Monday, 8. July 2019, 21:05

5 players say rogues are OP....but if those 5 players have no idea how to pvp or how to go against a rogue....where does that fit in the "non-biased" opinion?

Bottom line is, a change in the skills, balance....should be done by people who don't play the game, who are objective in deciding how it should change and who have an idea or a plan for it.Then I am pretty sure, players will get a chance to test it out on the VIP server and only THEN some things will come to light that may or may not work best, then they can collect player feedback and see what they can adjust / change, but definitely not before, cause then they would end up with messing it all up even more.

Players always want their class to be OP, and doesnt matter who suggests changes, there will always be part of that there, so its better for complete strangers to come up with a plan and idea, and just help them improve it.

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currykaran2

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Monday, 8. July 2019, 21:45

What? I don't know if you're missing the concept of a "suggestion" or you simply believe a balance in the game should be based on what the math equals. And I'll tell you right now it's impossible. You are asking people that don't play the game to consider the play style of an average player (Which is not possible in case you have trouble conceiving that) and decide what best fits that average player based on how the numbers add up (once again not possible because if skills like Dash don't work, and the person fixing them does not take suggestions of the players, then that person will consider it a part of their math, thus hindering their calculations)

You want to believe that a balance can be done from the outside, but that's simply not how balancing works. Some of the biggest games in this genre, I won't name any, ask players for balancing criteria. Heck, some of them have in-game polls... because that's how much player opinion matters. You cannot ask a combat based game to be balanced by the developer unless that developer dedicates as much time as an average player actually playing the game.

Those 5 players that you're referring to have more idea of how pvp works than the developer, that has not played the game, would.
And there are many things to combat this entire "biased" concept, and to name one, it's called "a team effort". One person's opinion does not need to be the change that is committed, you can have a team's opinion, made up of various different players, gms, developers, who play different characters, who have knowledge of different aspects of the game.

At this point you're arguing against a rebalance rather than a fair balance. And that's what you've done time and time again on various balancing threads. So if that's what you're arguing for, state it so I do not have to argue you on the "Biased" statement. Because as stated in my previous posts as well, biased opinions are biased until two opposing opinions are introduced to each other. And that can easily be done.

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currykaran2

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Monday, 8. July 2019, 21:58

Do keep in mind, all progress can be made on a different branch from the live.

This way if some of the changes applied and tested do not work out, it would be easy as 1, 2, 3 to revert them.

And again, regardless of what I'm arguing, I am ultimately fighting for a rebalance, regardless of who does it and it be open to interpretation and changes throughout its process. Thus allowing those who will feel the effect of the changes to have a say and measurable opinion in what happens.

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Monday, 8. July 2019, 23:33

somes coma/gm aren't bad at pvp, maybe not players, so maybe the staff his self can help for the balance.

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This post by "Crossy" (Tuesday, 9. July 2019, 14:01) has been deleted by the author himself (Tuesday, 9. July 2019, 14:01) with the following reason: What just happened?

Crossy

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Tuesday, 9. July 2019, 14:04

I voted yes on this topic in the end, but I want to underline that it was a very tentative yes. I agree that feedback from the players should be taken into account when it comes to balancing the game, but I don't nescesarily disagree with Una on the whole bias topic. Just because 5 people say "Rogues are OP" does not mean that it's true, or even that they are nescesarily talking about the same thing. While they agree that something needs to be done to rebalance the Rogue, they might have a different opinion on what about the Rogue makes them unbalanced.

One might think that the solution is to remove the Elemental Debuff on Confusion Capsule while two of the others think that the correct way to "fix" it would be to make it so AoE attacks still hit Rogues while they are invisible and the last two might think that the solution isn't to nerf the Rogue but to buff every other class.

Also, change for the sake of change is never a good thing as far as I'm concerned. There will always be people who are disatisfied with the game balance for one reason or another, and it is not beneficial to just keep changing things around infinitely, so where do we draw the line? How do we determine which suggestions are "good" ideas and which ones are just a bunch of salty players crying because they suck at the game? Just because 5 salty players are crying out because "Rogues" are OP and only 1 other player speaks up that Rogues aren't OP does not mean that the former is true, or that it needs to be addressed, but where's the line in the sand?
This way if some of the changes applied and tested do not work out, it would be easy as 1, 2, 3 to revert them.

Finally, I just want to poke at this really quick. Not really disagreeing with you on this point, but too much change can do more harm than good.

If too much change occurs at the same time, it can cause a backlash from players who feel like they are put too far outside of their comfort zone and that in turn can at best result in just a lot of salt being thrown around on forums, in the discord chat and in game, at can at worst result in a mass exodus from players who feel like they were being screwed over by Gamigo.

On the other end of the spectrum, if they just implement small changes every week and then if people complain about the changes they revert them two weeks later, it can also cause all kinds of problems between the players and the devs. If the balance keeps shifting over and over, it can actively discourage the players from investing in adapting to the changes, because the balance can just change again the following week, rendering all their work and investment a waste.

And reverting changes isn't just a matter of snapping your fingers and removing some code. Regardless of whether it was just some small change to an NPC's invetory or a big rebalance of the Elemental System, Gamigo pay people to code this game for them. Reverting changes, regardless of the reasoning behind it, means that whatever time and money Gamigo invested in that change in the first place was a waste of resources.

Again, I voted yes on the poll because I think it is important that player feedback is taken into account when it comes to game balance, but I am wary of the problems that could spring up if Gamigo doesn't tread carefully on this topic.
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The1AndOnly

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Tuesday, 9. July 2019, 17:41

i votes YES...!

there needs to be balance... and the way it is going nothing happens/happend since 4ever.

when the balance is made id allso prefer that as much is done as posible thinking befor released on test server.

allso how can someone who never played the game do that?? they wont even understand the concept of what is actualy wrong.
the changes got to be fair. and yea would allso be great if this is looked into ASAP!!!

COP should not work on sieges as it does. cleric buffs Dbuffs?!? spec stone Dbuffs!?!? reg sin? reg wizz? elemtalist? and so on.. they became utterly useless once elemetal changes where made. this is a super sad thing.

there is way to much dead content in the game aswell due to the elemental system, and elephant buff being as it is.. way to OP. to much to even try explain. but i have done it in the past. no matter what i fell like only the poll's witch suggestions the GM's likes is something that will ever happen as there doesnt seem to happen much but small minor things.

allso i do not think rogues are op!! the ex rangers just got all the sweet things.. and other classes got basicly.. 0 =(
i used to be ex sin up untill element dubuffs where added.. as ex sins got non and rangers got two.. fair? hell no.. would i like it to change, not really because…. that would mean id go back to ex sin and my xranger got everything done ingame.. 2 xbows +30 (dura) meh.. wasent cheap.
would surely make another toon tho =D i played sins since i remember and allway liked em even back when they werent "that good" the 100% cd i would never want back in game as a thing… as it was the moste lame thing ever.. 1 skill all day everyday.. not even fun. but skills does need rework aswell as buffbuffs and buff some cd's aswell

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "The1AndOnly" (9. July 2019, 17:48)

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currykaran2

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Tuesday, 9. July 2019, 21:26

I just want to clear a few things up:

1. The game god damn does need a re-balance, I think everyone at this point agrees.
2. Bias is going to occur, but the best way to combat that is by having as many people testing and giving opinions on what does and does not work.

  • You cannot get outsiders to do the balancing, I've worked on projects that I have had 0 experience with, and I can promise you, as good as I can understand math, at the end, it never adds up to what you want. Because each character has its own play style, each character has its own kinks and quirks, different buffs benefit different characters differently. No one in their right mind can work on a project they have 0 knowledge of and be able to put all of that information together to make sound decisions.
  • The more suggestions being put into the bucket and then voted over, the higher the accuracy of removing bias from a decision.

3. The best place to start is by running over all skills and checking the elemental attack/defense buffs/debuffs that these skills provide. Some, like pointed out by "The1AndOnly" make 0 sense.
  • Cleric buffs such as 'Encourage' and 'Charm' have elemental defense debuffs. Thus giving Clerics the ability to debuff their opponents without even being in combat with them.
  • Specialist skill called 'Sonic Break' has an elemental attack debuff... If the opponent is debuffed by Sonic Break, they are already unable to attack, so having an elemental attack debuff makes no sense.
  • Usability of certain skills in certain areas or to do certain things is also major. Nightshadow Skill called 'Cop of Night' should not hinder the ability of a player to capture the Crystal at Dratan Castle Siege.
  • Pet buffs should not work in arena. Certain pet buffs also need to be nerfed to allow for an extensive gameplay. At this very moment, it takes approximately 8 hours to get from level 1 to level 165. You do not need to farm SP because the game is heavily based on auto attacks, and with the use of Elephant buff, you can basically 1 hit everything that you'll be leveling on till level 165.

4. Removing the Elemental System is not a fix, but working with it will be one.
  • Reworking of Affinity items is also a must, the ability to use a potion every 3? ticks defeats the purpose of actual combat, instead relies on who can keep healing and conditioning the fastest.


And to tackle what Crossy said about development time and cost:
  • I understand that reverting changes is the last resort, I was not recommending implementing a bunch of changes to have them reverted when players do not like them. I was recommending changes (ANY, because we haven't had any in years) in general. And if at the very end it does not work out, ability to revert unwanted content should not be hard.
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Wise

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Wednesday, 10. July 2019, 01:36

Dream on... really...
There will be never balance on this game, ever!
There will never be consensus on anything!
Wake up already!
Didn't see any poll or agreement back then, when something was changed,
isn't it funny, when the changes were implemented silently,
and probably because of the opposite character loud noise or
maybe because back then, it was someone, who didn't know how to play?!
So letting it happen again - to me this idea is born dead.

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Wednesday, 10. July 2019, 08:47

the way people respond as u above.. is the people who destroy the thoughts on haveing anything worked on to get fixed.
sorry but it happend back in the old pool's aswell.. and i am really tired of this game as this state.. im back atm, from about 1 year long break.
and in that time NOTHING has happend to make anything better but just added more ic stuff and even afinity items to that wierdo sale there is.. dont remember name of tit they call it something.. "doesnt even matter" people are just leaveing the game its all there is to it as there is plenty of other games out there.. and i woulden mind to give recomendations to other games with way better pvp and fights then here.. basicly every game has better allso pve..
elebuff and element stages are so wrong worked out.. and could be fixxed easy ive suggested elebuff to be 25-50 75% buffs instead thats still an amazeing boost.. but yea.. people dident like that cause ohh noooo… cant 1shot grind no more?!?!?!? lol.. ever tryed other games or this befor element stage2 and elebuff?? without 100% cd??
well back then… i swear this game where top notch. really awsome and could get every 1 i asked to like it.. but yea.. hornestly here now.. GF quit cause she lost all her stuff due to move to gamigo.. brothers quit do to changes further back cant even remember exactly i think it where the release of 17x sets with eva and hr.. sorta ruind the good pvp and more fun fights.. and so on with real life friends i showed this game. and yea… im not far from leaveing for good myself.. but now im surely done with negative people here on forums.. suit yourself and GL. i made plenty of idea's to get this here game good in the past and did a pretty good job at getting people to try it. but as it is now Theres no point because no one who havent played it allready will never get to like this game as it has no PVE no PVP and KVK.. simply fell like gamigo gave it all up and rather tryed to buy out all the licens to become owner of the game instead of run the game. is that what killed it?

anyways just some thoughts and thanks to karan for trying.. but im sour when im tired and just step in the door from 12 hours work shift at night so bare with me and all my typo's.

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Wednesday, 10. July 2019, 21:52

I worry about any players having any input into balancing. Mainly because balancing means different things to different people and as has been previously point out there is a great deal of bias in the community as to what they think is balance. Does the whole pvp system need to be reworked? Yes definitely but, there is soooo much that has to be taken into account. I just don't trust the community to see the big picture at this point as everyone will only look at their world.

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Friday, 12. July 2019, 16:06

No. The game has always been unbalanced. IMO, the only time you see posts like this are from people I never heard of, claiming the classes are broken, just because they can't play them and kill every single person in game.

With Elephants and jewels...the game will never be balanced unless every one has the same thing, THEN, and only IF they know how to play the class.


~AnyBodyKilla/Mr.Funktastik/Oberline/[Da3rdJuggalo(Katar/Cariea servers)]

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Friday, 12. July 2019, 17:01

the balance?) it would be great, we are also waiting on the ru version of this) :cursing:

Лев — царь зверей. Пока не проснулась львица. :love: :love: :love:
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